Wednesday, June 27, 2007

Bloomington Pantagraph 911 discussions

"Normal" US citizens are divided about 9/11 crimes.

Many raising questions about events of Sept. 11

There are several organizations that are raising key questions about what really happened on Sept. 11 and are calling for a truly independent commission to investigate those questions.

One is Patriots Question 911. This group is made up of military officiers, members of intelligence agencies, government officials, professors, 911 survivors, family members, first responders and media professionals.

The U.S. military officers include Gen. Wesley Clark, retired; Maj. Gen. Albert Stubblebine, retired; Col. Ronald Ray, retired; Col. Robert Bowman, retired; Col. George Nelson, retired; Maj. Douglas Rokke, retired; Capt. Russ Wittenberg, Capt. Daniel Davis, Maj. Scott ritter and Maj. Erik Kleinsmith.

Federal officials include two presidential candidates, Republican Congressman Ron Paul and Democratic Congressman Dennis Kucinich.

Others in the group include:

-- Norm Mineta, secretary of transportation from 2001 to 2006; Joseph Wilson, Morgan Reynolds and Daniel Elsberg.

-- World Trade Center survivors William Rodriguez, who spoke in Peoria this past April; Philip Morelli and Marlene Cruz.

-- Scientists and engineers such as William Rice and Steven Jones.

-- First responders such as Deputy Fire Commissioner of the New York Fire Department Thomas Fitzpatrick and New York firefighter Joseph Montoperta.

Another group is Architects and Engineers for 911 Truth. It has a similar list of professional people willing to go on record with their questions and concerns.

To learn more about these organization, do your own search or go to the Pantagraph Web site’s letters section where I will post some background information.

Gregg Brown


Reader comments on this story - 101 total

Note: All views and opinions expressed in reader comments are solely those of the individual submitting the comment, and not those of the Pantagraph or its staff.

I wonder wrote on Jun 27, 2007 2:23 PM:

" I wonder if either: Bloomington/Normal has a lot of world class experts in skyscrapper construction (even though we do not have any in B/N) or just a bunch of people that have left the mother ship without their tin foil hats? "

Firefighter wrote on Jun 27, 2007 2:00 PM:

" You don’t need Jet fuel to heat metal to the point of failure, or even kerosene as stated before. Did you see the fire and amount of smoke on the TV the day the WTC was hit, there was fire and a lot of it. Anytime you have that much fire burning, impinging on exposed steel it will fail. Just ask the nine we just buried in SC. You can argue the other points all day long, but two planes hit the buildings, they burned and then failed. Ask any rookie firefighter and he’ll tell you once a fire burns uncontrolled for any length of time I don’t care what structure you’re in, something bad is going to happen. God Bless the 343. "

Li'l Johnny wrote on Jun 27, 2007 1:07 PM:

" OMG! OK, here is the real truth about 911: These buildings were actually attacked by Cloaked Romulan War birds. They used holographic projections to make their photon torpedoes look just like commercial airplanes. After hitting the twin towers they blasted building #7 on their way to get the Pentagon. At which point they retreated to Area 57 where they have been hiding in a secure area ever since Admiral Kirk chased them to Earth back in the 60s. Saddam was waiting for them with Champaign, then they partied for a while and then transported him back to one of his palaces. I’ll tell you what. This is as believable a scenario as what these absolutely Looney conspiracy buffs are proposing. What really cracks me up is the pseudo scientific and unsupported totally weird architectural ‘EXPERTS’, declaring their statements as absolute fact. What scares me the most though; is these people are voters! "

moby wrote on Jun 27, 2007 12:06 PM:

" Why talk about an old conspiracy when we could talk about the next? Type NSPD 51 into your search engines. "

Most people wrote on Jun 27, 2007 11:58 AM:

" Most people don’t know that the WTC Towers were designed to be structurally unaffected by a Boeing 707 plane crashing into it. Allegedly, a Boeing 767 crashed into it and the 767 is 35% more massive than a 707. But what is interesting is that the Tower that fell first was not hit by the entire 767, as much of its fuel burned up in the air outside the Tower in a massive fireball. So why did that Tower collapse in 50 minutes? "

ConspiracyTheorist wrote on Jun 27, 2007 11:32 AM:

" You can't have a pancake collapse in 10 seconds. The law of conservation of momentum is violated. Video shows the buildings collapsing at the same speed as beams falling through mid air. The towers and bldg 7 fell at the speed of gravity. Pancaking is ruled out. The steel used in the construction of the trade centers was tested at Underwriters Labs by heating it to 2000 F (no fireproofing) at which point it retained 95% of its original strength. Kerosene in an uncontrolled unvironment will not burn hotter than about 800 F. NIST's tests of the steel revealed that they were not subjected to temperatures greater than 650 F. The structural integrity of the floors below the crash was not compomised by impact nor weakened by fire. The beneficiaries of 911, aside from Silverstein, are Bush and Cheney and Saudi Arabia. Cheney's stock options in Halliburton have increased in value to the tune 3620%. "

If the heat was so intense... wrote on Jun 27, 2007 11:13 AM:

" ...then why were people seen standing in window areas, waving their arms seeking attention/help ? Obviously if the steel melted, these people should have melted as well. * Fact: Cheney ordered NORAD TO STAND DOWN!!! For the first time ever since the inception of NORAD, F-15's were not scrambeld for our defense. Please explain the logic to this as NYC, DC, & the Pentagon are the most protected air spaces in the world! Wake up those of you who doubt that this was an inside job, WAKE UP. DO the research! Quit feeding at the trough of mainstream media. And by the way, did you know that Bush & Cheney have declared themselves "above the law?" The dictators have arrived and they brag about it! Openly! My gawd...some of you people are so naive. "

Disorderly Conductor wrote on Jun 27, 2007 11:11 AM:

" They fell now their gone get over it. The government had it's hands dirty in my mind even if they never pulled the switch. The government empowered Bin Laden many years before this event and that makes our government just as responsible for those who actually flew the planes into the buildings. Babbling about this and that and posing questions that will never be answered is pointless and a waste of time. Get over it they are gone forever. "

Another jarhead wrote on Jun 27, 2007 10:31 AM:

" Although I suspect I'm to the left of Semper Fi, I have to agree with my brother Marine on this one: there's no way such a conspiracy could be successfully hidden. Nixon, a much shaper cookie than G.W.B., couldn't keep Watergate secret, and that involved much smaller numbers of "conspirators". I have no love for the current Bush administration, but I can't see this kind of thing coming out of there. It makes no sense. "

Two things wrote on Jun 27, 2007 10:30 AM:

" First, people ask how could the demolition be kept secret. Since it only takes about six weeks for a crew of about 20 men to set up the explosives to demolish a big building. This would means that 100 men could easily set up the explosives for the Towers. Did you know that during WWII 50,000 people worked on making the three atomic bombs that were made and nobody knew about it for over three years? So the government organizations can keep secrets. Second, I have Oklahoma City news footage from the day of the Oklahoma City bombing and the newscasters were announcing that two larger undetonated bombs had been found in the building. Why wasn’t this shown nationally? "

Structural Engineer wrote on Jun 27, 2007 10:12 AM:

" Contrary to the sudden collapse of the Twin Towers and Building #7, the four other smaller World Trade Center buildings #3, #4, #5, and #6, which were severely damaged and engulfed in flames on 9/11, still remained standing. There were no reports of multiple explosions. The buildings had no pools of molten metal (a byproduct of explosives) at the base of their elevator shafts. They created no huge caustic concrete/cement and asbestos dust clouds (only explosives will pulverize concrete into a fine dust cloud), and they propelled no heavy steel beams horizontally for three hundred feet or more. The collapse of WTC building #7, which housed the offices of the CIA, the Secret Service, and the Department of Defense, among others, was omitted from the government’s 9/11 Commission Report, and its collapse has yet to be investigated. Perhaps it is time for these and other unanswered questions surrounding 9/11 to be thoroughly investigated "

Adam wrote on Jun 27, 2007 9:17 AM:

" I'll be the first to admit I do not trust the Bush admin. I also can say that I don't totally buy into the idea of a massive conspiracy. However there are tons of questions surrounding the events. The fall of the buildings being my biggest question. Even the "explained" pancake theory proposed by the experts makes zero sense. The supports below are capable of holding the load of the above floors. You can make the arguement that the added weight of the plane pulled them down, but at some point the supports are simply going to handle the load and it would slide to one side. Any child who has played jenga knows that when you weaken a structure it never falls straight down, it goes to the sides. "

Steel melting? wrote on Jun 27, 2007 9:16 AM:

" We're worried about if the steel was melted? Hello? A 757 flew into the side of the building at 300-500 MPH. The steel pretty much was compromised the minute the jet flew into the building. The steel only needed further weakening to collapse on itself. Good lord you comspiracy nutjobs are clueless. "

SEMPER FI wrote on Jun 27, 2007 9:04 AM:

" Wow, can I have some Electric Kool-Aid and take a bong hit too. People that think the government did this are real kooks. Explain to me how this has been kept secret. It would take several hundred people several weeks to wire those buildings for demolition. I think people working there would notice strange things like that going on? What happened to the people that were on the hijacked flights? Did the government make them disappear? Oh by the way, remember what happened recently in California? A tanker truck blew up on a bridge, and the fire from the burning fuel caused the STEEL STRUCTURE to weaken enough that the roadway came down. A much smaller fire than what happened at the WTC Towers. Steel doesn't have to melt to fail. Get it up to around 1200 degrees F and it starts to weaken and lose strength. Catastrophic failure ensued. The fire proofing in the towers was compromised when the buildings were built, because the material was change from asbestos to another material. This other fire proofing had adhering problems. "

2+2=4 wrote on Jun 27, 2007 8:04 AM:

" George Bush Sr. - Head of the CIA. After watergate - many powers of CIA taken away. George Bush Sr - elected President. Arms and trains Sadaam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden before they were "terrorists". George W. Bush Elected President. George W. Claims terrorists (Osama - put into power originally by George Bush Sr.) attacked WTC. After 911 - Former restrictions on CIA removed. You do the math. How about an apology and some accountability by the CIA and George Bush for training these whackos in the first place? Especially if they are blaming them for the attacks?? "

Leland Lesher wrote on Jun 27, 2007 8:03 AM:

" You all are too, TOO funny! "

My God wrote on Jun 27, 2007 7:57 AM:

" Most of you are so ignorant that you actually ridicule anyone challenging the "official" story that has been spoon fed to you. Lemming, all lemmings. The fact that you all believe everything coming out of Washington is really concerning to me. Do you believe everything, or only the 9\11 explanations? Even when faced with EXPERT testimony from structural engineeers, people hold on to their safe little beleifs that the USA is the "good guy" and can do no wrong. I guess that makes you great citizens, but stupid human beings. "

It's about time!! wrote on Jun 27, 2007 7:47 AM:

" The scariest thing to me is this: The conspirators in the 911 attacks (most likely members of our own government) have PROVEN that the American public will buy ANY story they come up with. They basically have free reign to do whatever they want, blame it on terrorists, and rally support for a new war in the future. We are way too gullible as a society. Ever hear of Pearl Harbor? Same thing, almost. We didnt orchestrate those attacks, but the goverment knew they were coming WELL in advance, didnty tell anyone, and let those American troops and civilians die to rally support for the war. Do any of you really think that the people running our government today are not capable of that same kind of sick manipulation, and worse? "

Judy wrote on Jun 27, 2007 7:40 AM:

" Did all of these buildings have the same construction? Steel would be more likely to melt than concrete, but concrete would not be good at withstanding earthquake tremors. "

Old Conspiracy wrote on Jun 27, 2007 7:24 AM:

" AFTer the Oklahoma City bombing. It was determined that Timothy McVeigh detonated the only bomb which all but destroyed the Murrah Building. However, during live morning broadcasts in Oklahoma City, on-air personalities were reporting multiple explosions as they occured. How could that have been? Also, how is no wreckage of a plane was found at the Pentagon after September 11? After TWA Flight 800 exploded over the Atlantic Ocean in 1996, how was it that almost the entire plane was recovered and put back together in an airport hanger, yet we can't find wreckage at the Pentagon, serial numbers of planes at the World Trade Center Towers? "

Structural Engineer wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:10 PM:

" Controlled demolition of the World Trade Center is so politically unthinkable that the media not only demeans the messenger but also ridicules and “debunks” the message rather than provide investigative reporting. Curiously, it took 441 days for the president’s 9/11 Commission to start an “investigation” into a tragedy where more than 2,500 WTC lives were taken. The Commission’s investigation also didn’t include the possibility of controlled-demolition, nor did it include an investigation into the “unusual and unprecedented” manner in which WTC Building #7 collapsed. The media has basically kept the collapse of WTC Building #7 hidden from public view. However, instead of the Twin Towers , let’s consider this building now. Building #7 was a 47-story structural steel World Trade Center Building that also collapsed onto itself at free-fall speed on 9/11. This structural steel building was not hit by a jetliner, and collapsed seven hours after the Twin Towers collapsed and five hours after the firemen had been ordered to vacate the building and a collapse safety zone had been cordoned off. Both of the landmark buildings on either side received relatively little structural damage and both continue in use today. "

willaim To To Judy 9:33 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 10:33 PM:

" That comment is uncalled for. "

willaim wrote on Jun 26, 2007 10:31 PM:

" This reminds me of the book "Chariots of the Gods" by Eric Von Daniken. Same wild theorys supported by so called experts. Give it a rest. "

hmmh wrote on Jun 26, 2007 10:07 PM:

" While reading this article and some of the replies it is easy to see why people like Hillary and Obama are popular. But it is funny that if someone says anything about them they refuse to believe it. I guess you call that selective thinking. And, if Bill Clinton had been president when the 2nd (he was president when the 1st happened but that wasn't questioned) attack occurred I bet he would just be getting praise. I guess you call that selective thinking too. Oh well it is almost time to elect a new president and they have to come up with all kinds of tales to gain support from the mindless Americans we seem to have. "

Judy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 10:04 PM:

" But if the heat was not that intense, how do you explain the ashes? I mean, they were really fine. "

To Judy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 9:33 PM:

" No, there was no intense heat. The thousands of gallons of jet fuel, fueling the fire wasn't really that intense. There's no way that it could have weakened steel enough that the hundreds of thousands of tons it was supporting could possible collapse. Are you stupid? "

Judy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:34 PM:

" Thank you so much for responding, but do you have a little more. I'm not real comfortable with credentials for Steven Jones, but that would be a common name and my research was very brief. "

to Judy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:11 PM:

" Intense heat can melt steel, but Professor Steven Jones has shown that there was no intense heat on any of the beams during 9/11. Check out his scientific paper that he presented to 60 of his peers who all agreed that the buildings couldn't have collapsed the way the government is saying. In fact, this is part of the point of Gregg Brown's letter that there is a group of architects and engineers who are saying we need an honest investigation because the buildings couldn't have collapsed the way our government is saying they did. "

Judy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 7:56 PM:

" I always thought the intense heat caused the metal beams to collapse. Is that not possible? "

facts wrote on Jun 26, 2007 7:56 PM:

" i am a well known conspiracy theorist author.i would like to thank all of my idiots.....oops i mean customers for making me a millions.hope to make much more soon.again thank you "

to: who and why wrote on Jun 26, 2007 7:55 PM:

" Not saying it was a conspiracy but it is negligent not to look at it more deeply. It is no secret that the neocons, as they stated, needed a cataclysmic event to be able to sell the invasion of Iraq to the public. Iraq was to be the first domino that fell, which would presumbably then fell the Syrian and Iranian governments. Iraq is a lunatic plan, so nothing would surpise me. "

to many wrote on Jun 26, 2007 7:37 PM:

" wow you must have found a new web page need to wake up and learn "

all the truth/ all the time wrote on Jun 26, 2007 7:19 PM:

" Can't you see that at Pres. Bush's request the fox news people fabricated the entire incident for ratings. With the help of the chinese the original plans for the twin towers were stucturally altered because of cost overruns. This explains the ease at which they collapsed, and the quick clean up was needed because the news value for tv coverage would be short lived. Hugo Chavez has made offers for the property at a very reduced rate, with hopes of building a good will statue of himself. I am still puzzled, thinking Israel must have had a financial stake in this. If evil is allowed to flourish while we talk, we are at fault. You folks are having trouble sighting in the bad guys. "

To Nettleton wrote on Jun 26, 2007 6:58 PM:

" You would be a cheerleader for a wacky conspiracy theorist. It also makes sense you do not have the courage or the ambition to write a letter yourself. Your liberal comments Nettleton are really getting mundane, as are your political views. "

to many wrote on Jun 26, 2007 5:49 PM:

" Lucy, Mental Health, Debunking and others have not studied history. The Nazis came to power by burning down the German Congress building called the Reichstag. LBJ fabricated the Gulf of Tonkin incident to attack Vietnam and he also allowed the USS Liberty to be attacked by Israeli jets. During JFK's short term, his generals came up with a plan to fake a jet airliner crash and pin it on Castro while shooting a handful of US citizens. That was in 1962 and it was called Operation Northwoods. People striving for power have killed others during all historic times. Some of you are concerned about 2,500 Americans but don't think twice that we've ruined Iraq and caused thes deaths of hundreds of thousands of non-Americans. Most of you don't even know that over 5,000,000 people from the Congo have been violently killed during the past ten years just so wealthy countries can get hold of their resources. Wake up and learn. "

Dawn wrote on Jun 26, 2007 5:47 PM:

" The video DVD 911 mysteries says it all. I encourage anyone who has not seen it to log on and watch. Just google it and you will find it. Prepare to be confounded. "

fact#15 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 5:28 PM:

" you would have to be a nut to believe facts 1 thru 14 "

to fact wrote on Jun 26, 2007 4:55 PM:

" i have not seen a single fact in all of your facts.why don't you just tell us which wacky web site you are using,you could save yourself alot of typing "

New Theory wrote on Jun 26, 2007 4:52 PM:

" Fill in the blank...Why didn't Bush capture Bin Laden in Torah Torah? Because... "

To Lucy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 4:51 PM:

" Never under-estimate the power and greed of government. Any government. "

Lucy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 4:40 PM:

" To all of you who think this was a conspiracy, I think you are nuts. NUTS...The government does many things that we don't agree with, but what all of you (liberals) are saying is just plain hogwash. I just don't believe the US government would stoop so low to kill thousands of innocents in our own country. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt. I think our government does some pretty lousy things (like welfare for more than 2 illegitimate kids)...but killing innocents (to start a war) is not one of the things I believe they do! "

To to:Mental Health? wrote on Jun 26, 2007 4:01 PM:

" Think of the many more thousands who would die there and around the world, including the U.S. if we leave too soon. The Islamic terrorists are emboldened by any sign of weakness, and they have every intention to take over Iraq and the world. They are bent on their way or death for everyone. "

Fact #14 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 3:48 PM:

" In August of 2002, a $116 TRILLION lawsuit was brought against part of the Saudi royal family and the bin Laden group corporation by over 600 Americans who lost relatives in the 9/11 tragedy because it is believed that they allegedly bankrolled the Al Qaeda. Notice that these Americans do not blame Afghanistan or Iraq. Still the US government has removed troops from Saudi Arabia, the country where most of the alleged 19 terrorists were from and attacked a different country. What kind of logic is that? The press does not dwell on this. "

for You wrote on Jun 26, 2007 3:45 PM:

" Who are gullible enough to to believe the pancake theory, this would mean that to fell any buildiing all a demolishionist would have to do is destroy the support members for just ONE floor midway up a building. How come demolition companies never do it that way? Do you think it could be that they know it is just not possible? "

to Mental Health wrote on Jun 26, 2007 3:14 PM:

" There's an important lesson in your oversimplified generalization - namely that it is specifically our love for this country that pushes us forward in seeking the truth. And you can drop the Bush/Fox News soundbites dude, I've got a brain thanks :-) "

to Matt wrote on Jun 26, 2007 2:56 PM:

" It doesn't matter if it hit ten stories lower. Why did the fifty floors below the implact suddenly disintegrate? How could all the massive steel collumns suddenly no longer keep there incredible steel toughness? Why did they not put up any resistance to the falling floors above? "

Fact #13 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 2:52 PM:

" The plane that supposedly flew into the ground in Pennsylvania had debris spread over six miles. A plane flying at roughly 300 miles per hour when crashing onto soft earth will not have its parts rolling over a six mile diameter. This means that the plane must have been either blown up or shot down in the air and broke apart and rained upon the surrounding area. This would have explained the debris being spread over a six-mile area. The press did not dwell on this. "

to Mental Health wrote on Jun 26, 2007 2:25 PM:

" There's an important lesson in your oversimplified generalization - namely that it is specifically our love for this country that pushes us forward in seeking the truth. And you can drop the Bush/Fox News soundbites dude, I've got a brain thanks :-) "

Matt wrote on Jun 26, 2007 2:15 PM:

" Re: the second fact #9; The second building was hit far lower than the first, therefore the damaged area had far more weight on it. I've seen the video that spoon fed you your opinion, and it is laughable. They ignore way too many important facts to be taken seriously. "

to: Mental Health wrote on Jun 26, 2007 2:06 PM:

" Sorry that this whole thing isn't in black and white for you, as I know simple-minded Republicans generally have difficulty seeing the gray. Take a look a the facts, do some research on the subject, then draw a conclusion. And no, just because some of us may question the events of that day does not mean that we hate America. It is simple-minded people such as yourself who are ruining this great country and threatening the welfare of the entire world (see also: Bush Presidency).... "

to:Mental Health? wrote on Jun 26, 2007 2:04 PM:

" But the goverment does conspire to kill thousands of people with there pointless, which is a byproduct of the events of September 11th. Which if everyone doesn't know by now, Iraq had NOTHING to do with. Yet how many more thousands will die before we leave? "

to Mental Health wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:54 PM:

" There's an important lesson in your oversimplified generalization - namely that it is specifically our love for this country that pushes us forward in seeking the truth. And you can drop the Bush/Fox News soundbites dude, I've got a brain thanks :-) "

to Mental Health wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:51 PM:

" There's an important lesson in your oversimplified generalization - namely that it is specifically our love for this country that pushes us forward in seeking the truth. And you can drop the Bush/Fox News soundbites dude, I've got a brain thanks :-) "

The minute... wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:51 PM:

" you mentioned Ron Paul and Dennis Kucinich is when I really started to laugh. :) Great stuff, and to think I only thought the comics were funny in the paper. "

to Mental Health wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:50 PM:

" There's an important lesson in your oversimplified generalization - namely that it is specifically our love for this country that pushes us forward in seeking the truth. And you can drop the Bush/Fox News soundbites dude, I've got a brain thanks :-) "

Fact #11 and #12 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:42 PM:

" There were firefighter tapes that had recorded that the fire commander stated they only needed two teams to put out the fires and later firemen stated that the fires were all out in one of the buildings. And yet not only did the two tall buildings collapse, but also the 47 story building 7, which had not been hit by the planes. In fact, PBS of all TV stations played a story with the current leasor of the WTC, Silverstein, said to "PULL the buildings!" which is standard demolition term for blowing up a building. #12 In Germany, Andreas Von Buelow, the former Minister of Defense, wrote a book. The translation of the title is “9/11 and the CIA.” It was a best seller in Europe. The premise is world fascism exists in the United States and a powerful military industrial complex engineered terror attacks to scare us into attacking other countries. In his words, 9/11 was an inside job. This is a very serious accusation. Why wasn't it covered in the press? "

to Lucy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:38 PM:

" It was a Fox News reporter. But I guess you're right in thinking that most news that you see is generated by nuts. So wake up and don't believe everything you hear. "

questionseverything wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:37 PM:

" the max temp for a hydrocarbon fire w/o pressurization or pre heating is 1517 degrees f steel melts at 2750 degrees f the pantagraph reported "rivers of moltem metal" 4-5 weeks after the attacks the concrete was pulvorized these r physical facts that lead me to beleive something besides jet fuel was responible for the 3 steel frame buildings collapse "

Debunking is correct wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:34 PM:

" The WTC was built different than any skyscraper before or after it. The damage to the fireproofing occurred when the building was struck by the plane. Fire was then able to impinge directly on steel building members causing them to fail. He was further correct in stating that the support of the building relied on the exterior structure elements, thus assisting the building with the straight down pancake collapse. Conspiracy or not, the WTC buildings were hit by plans and due to the amount of fuel and the building construction caused them to collapse the way they did. Never has there been so much photographic evidence of a building collapse, and there was no indication of “explosions” being set off on lower floors causing the building to fall the way it did. Who did it or why…debate all day. How is overly evident. "

to Debunking Facts 1-4 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:27 PM:

" you said "Instead of stacks of steel columns on the intereior, the entire support system for the towers where on the exterior. " This is WRONG. The main structural support for the WTC twin towers was a network of 47 central core columns running all the way from bedrock to the top of the buildings. Please get your facts right before attempting to debunk, otherwise you just look ignorant :-) "

Mental Health? wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:21 PM:

" You conspiracy theorists are sad. You are so full of hate for your own country that you find it easy to believe that thousands in our govt could and would successfully conspire to kill thousands of American civilians. None of these conspirators have come forward (amazing), and in spite of many reputable studies, most recently Purdue University Engineering dept, showing how these buildings collapsed, you persist in your delusions. I've seen the web sites, and it's far from convincing. But never fear, there are millions of gullible, not so bright Americans who will gobble up your hate and lies. "

to Debunking Facts 1-4 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:18 PM:

" you said "Instead of stacks of steel columns on the intereior, the entire support system for the towers where on the exterior. " This is WRONG. The main structural support for the WTC twin towers was a network of 47 central core columns running all the way from bedrock to the top of the buildings. Please get your facts right before attempting to debunk, otherwise you just look ignorant :-) "

Lucy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:15 PM:

" To Fact #9.......How could the plane have no windows? What about all the people on that plane that had tickets...Don't you think they would have turned around and gotten off the plane? The guy that says the plane had no windows is just plain nuts! "

Jon wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:07 PM:

" Anyone who dismisses alternative conspiracy theories without even looking at the arguments and evidence they put forward, is blinkered, prejudiced and unscientific. There are some features of the 9/11 building "collapses" which, if we believe the Government's conspiracy theory, actually defy the laws of physics. For those who don't believe, do your research first, look at the arguments from both sides, then come to a conclusion. Personally, I thought it was a wacky story until I looked into it closely. You need to do the kind of analysis that you ain't gonna find on Fox News. Peace "

Jon wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:01 PM:

" Anyone who dismisses alternative conspiracy theories without even looking at the arguments and evidence they put forward, is blinkered, prejudiced and unscientific. There are some features of the 9/11 building "collapses" which, if we believe the Government's conspiracy theory, actually defy the laws of physics. For those who don't believe, do your research first, look at the arguments from both sides, then come to a conclusion. Personally, I thought it was a wacky story until I looked into it closely. You need to do the kind of analysis that you ain't gonna find on Fox News. Peace "

Google search wrote on Jun 26, 2007 1:00 PM:

" If you go to the Patriots Question 9/11 web site, you see that the page itself states that Patriots Question 9/11 "is not an organization and it should be made clear that none of these individuals are affiliated with this website." It seems that the whole argument of this letter, that many reputable people are part of this "group" that is questioning the events 9/11 so we should question those events too, is based on false premises. I'm not saying you shouldn't make an argument on this subject, but you could at least come up with one based on cogent foundations. "

Fact #9 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 12:41 PM:

" Firemen in New York City are extremely angry at ex-Mayor Giuliani for hurrying their work at the World Trade Center and then for barring them from finishing their work. Never before had a modern steel-framed, high-rise building collapsed from a fire and all of a sudden three did within a few hours of each other (World Trade Center buildings 1, 2 and 7). If this had been really caused by a fire, then the firemen could have added immeasurably to their knowledge on how to make high-rises safer from fires by investigating the wreckage. But I guess Giuliani knew it was not a fire that had brought down the buildings and his job was to help cover up what really had occurred. What is especially remarkable about this is that the building that was hit second fell first even though most of the fuel from the airplane that hit it burned up in the air outside that building. I guess the laws of physics did not apply to that building. The press did not point this out. "

Big_Skyy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 12:25 PM:

" What an ingenious plan to flood the Pantagraph's website with activity: issue a cryptic, mysterious letter full of generalities that suggest a nefarious plot to take down America, and state "a lot of people have questions about what really happened." (Come to think of it, I have a lot of questions, too, though likely with a far different thrust than Gregg's). Then issue four "facts" all of which have been disproved or easily explained by Popular Mechanics magazine about four years ago. Consider my hat doffed. If I was a conspiracy nut, I would have to conclude the Pantagraph editorial board goes by the name of "Gregg Brown" and hatched this sinister plot to drive up revenue from hits on the website. But next consider this: Who is the real Gregg Brown and what has the Pantagraph done with him? "

Fact #9 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 12:13 PM:

" Immediate eyewitness testimony and even news reports contradict the official story. For instance, Mark Burnback, a FOX reporter referring to one of the planes that hit the WTC stated, “It definitely didn’t look like a commercial plane, I didn’t see any windows on the side. Again, it was not a normal flight that I’ve ever seen at an airport. It had a blue logo on the front, and it did not look like it belonged in the area.” CNN Jamie McIntyre reporter stated, “but from my close up inspection, there’s no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon.” Many witnesses, including firemen and building maintenance workers like William Rodrieguez, stated they heard one or more explosions. "

to Debunking wrote on Jun 26, 2007 12:01 PM:

" You say "The WTC tower that fell not only was on fire, but had severe structural damages from the falling towers" That is illogical. How can a building cause itself structural damage. Have you debunked yourself? What exactly are you studying? Fox news? "

Fact #8 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:54 AM:

" The two most experienced airlines in the world, American Airlines and United Airlines, each had two hijackings at the same time starting within an hour of each other. This never happened before. The FAA has standard guidelines in place to handle planes that are not responding to communications let alone hijackings. In fact, these guidelines have been routinely put into action about once every ten days for years. However in this case, the air traffic controllers were slow to respond and notify the Air Force. In fact, the first jet interceptor was not launched until 75 minutes after the first hijacking. When they did, the Air Force only sent two planes out of 6,000 operational fighters. And these two planes flew at about 25% of their top speed. Perhaps, one reason they are slow is the fact that the Pentagon was conducting at least THREE major exercises that simulated terrorists crashing planes into buildings on September 11, 2001, and this would have caused considerable confusion. This reeks of something far out of the ordinary and, as usual, the press did not investigate this. "

To Who & Why wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:48 AM:

" How about to put us at war, and to take away our rights? If we are at war Lots of people make lots of money. And just this May your President passed law that during an "emergecy event" he will be given absolute power to control the goverment, martial law here we come "

Debunking facts 1-4 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:42 AM:

" I've also have done research on these facts. The WTC tower that fell not only was on fire, but had severe structural damages from the falling towers as did other buildings in the vicinity. The fire was the result of a gas line explosion. Put all of those factors together and it's no mystery why the building fell. None of the buildings fell just because of fire. Tower 1 and 2 where built completely differently than the Empire State Buliding. Instead of stacks of steel columns on the intereior, the entire support system for the towers where on the exterior. When the planes exploded, the structural integrity of the entire buliding was affected. The plane that hit the empire building was not, as conspiracy theorists clame, a b-52 bomber, but rather a much smaller b-25. The damage was minimal compared to the 9/11 attacks. Only a small portion of the 78th floor was actually damaged. Look at the photographs. The bulidings where allowed to free fall on themselves since the support for the building was on the exterior. There was nothing stopping the interior to free fall. "

to to Fact #2 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:37 AM:

" You probably forgot, although they showed it on TV over one hundred times about the tower that was hit second. There was a massive burnoff of fuel outside the building with most of the fuel burning up in a few seconds in the air. Also the pancake theory has been discredited by even FEMA. "

Fact #6 and #7 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:25 AM:

" The passengers on the plane that allegedly crashed in Pennsylvania made several cell phone calls at altitude. This is highly unlikely, because cell phones have extreme problems passing thru the aluminum shell of a passenger plane and the switching software for cell-tower communications is not designed for cell phones moving quickly (300 to 500 mph) from one cell-tower to the next (at least not with 2001 cell phone technology). The caller will lose his connection. However, the technology was available to copy anyone’s voice and fool someone on a phone that they are talking to someone else. Yes, even their mother. #7. High level government officials in the FBI, CIA and other organizations stopped all serious investigations by any of their lower level employees who happened to stumble on parts of any activity that were related to 9/11 terrorism. (FBI memo’s ). Why would government officials be stopped from doing their job to protect the United States? "

Krusty Krab wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:21 AM:

" Wow! "Facts 1,2,3 and 4" are the keys to the puzzle! They decidedly point to the location of Jimmy Hoffa, Kenndey's "other" assassin, and that dog gone elusive bogey man! "

spoede wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:19 AM:

" Looks like Gregg has abandoned global warming and moved his orbit further out. "

Wat Tyler wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:18 AM:

" Facts are strange things. Gregg got most of them wrong. From the top down, first of all, acceleration in earts gravity is 9.8 m/s/s. At what point was the building measured at just below freefall speed? This is a nonsense statement. The WTC weighed about 500,000 tons. It collapsed over 1000 feet. I'll bet that caused a seismic event recordable 21 miles away. Wouldn't you? Gregg conventiently doesn't provide his calculations, just baldly states it is impossible. Finally never has a modern skysraper been filled with 23,000 gallons of jet fuel, had a cross-ventalation path established and set on fire. Maybe that is why they didn't collapse when the furniture burned. "

Paladin wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:09 AM:

" ...the fire-proofing of the bars at WTC was stripped away by the body of the airplane crashing into them. The impact stripped them, then they were compromised by the heat. Fairly simple logic. The B-24 that hit the Empire State Building didn't have anywhere near the fuel capacity of the jumbo jets, and the heat generated wasn't the equivalent of the heat at WTC. Each collapsing floor added to the force of the preceding floor, with force generated and focused in a multitude of directions at once (not just straight down). Think of multiple shaped charges, going off at once, sequentially (and increasing in power with each floor), to equate to the force generated. That would CERTAINLY be enough to cause the collapse that occurred. "

Fact #5 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:08 AM:

" Aircraft have many parts with unique serial numbers stamped on them. Whenever there is an airplane crash, investigators always find components with their identifying serial numbers. Of the four crashes on 9/11, not one piece of a plane with a serial number on it matching those of the four airliners was found. To not find any identifying parts is not only unusual, but it has never happened before in aviation history when investigators were able to examine the wreckage. Thus, since investigators have found no identifiable parts from the four commercial airliners that allegedly crashed into the towers, the Pentagon and Pennsylvania, we must conclude it is unknown what happened to those airliners. "

Crybaby wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:07 AM:

" "Facts 1 & 2": Re: World Trade Center: sounds like mighty poor construction to me. "

re: Lucy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:05 AM:

" a wack job.... "

Who & Why wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:05 AM:

" If 9/11 was a conspiracy then what was the purpose? Also who was behind it? It couldn't have been Bush because let's face it he's not smart enough to pour water out of a boot when the instructions are written on the sole. "

to Fact #2 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 11:02 AM:

" How about the "fact" that the army plane you mention held up to 1000 gallons of fuel and the jet that hit the twin towers held 23000 gallons of fuel? How about the fact that the jet that hit the towers had almost doube the wing span of your example? The "FACT" is there has been "NO" comparible crash in the history of flight. This plane was larger, full of fuel and going at a fast speed. You can come up with all of your "facts", but there are simply too many "truths" that outweigh your conspiracy theory. "

Fact #3 and #4 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 10:40 AM:

" Speed of fall. All of the WTC buildings fell only slightly slower than freefall speed. The laws of physics and the practice of structural engineering make this impossible. The tremendously strong steel columns below the impact points must give tremendous resistance to the fall of the floors above it. This is why demolition companies must place many explosive charges throughout the buildings that they demolish, because if they didn’t, the buildings wouldn’t fall straight down. #4. Seismologists at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades, N.Y., 21 miles north of the World Trade Center, recorded strange seismic activity on Sept. 11 that has still not been explained. What they recorded was a spike of energy that happened just before each collapse that was much greater than any energy recorded from the debris of the falling buildings. Scientifically, this is not possible from a building that is collapsing from above. "

Fact #2 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 10:10 AM:

" Planes have flown into steel-framed buildings before and have not hurt their structural support at all. In fact, on Saturday at 9:49AM, July 28, 1945, a US bomber crashed into the Empire State building on the 79th floor setting it on fire. The elevators above the 60th floor were not operational and the firemen had to carry their heavy gear up 19 flights. The fire burned for over an hour before firemen could put it out. Mayor La Guardia also hurried to the scene and walked up the last 19 floors. When he reached the 79th floor he found that “a fiery furnace” was still raging there, but he remained until after the flames had been put out. (Sorry New York, but you were stuck with the courage-challenged Giuliani.) Before the day was out, engineers, architects and the city building department declared the building structurally sound. All you need to realize is that the structural soundness of the World Trade Center was several times better than that of the Empire State building. To repeat, until 9/11, no steel-frame high rise ever “collapsed” from an airplane crash or a fire. "

Fact #1 wrote on Jun 26, 2007 9:47 AM:

" Never has a steel-framed building ever collapsed from fire. There have been several notable fires in other skyscrapers lasting hours and they never endangered the structural integrity of those buildings. Four famous high-rise fires that you can look up in newspapers are: 1) August 5, 1970, a 50 story building in New York City burned for 6 hours, 2) May 4, 1980, a 62 story building in Los Angeles burned for 3 hours, 3) February 23, 1991, a 38 story building in Philadelphia burned for 19 hours, and 4) October 17, 2004, a 56 story building in Caracas, Venezuela burned for 17 hours. None of these buildings collapsed and none of their steel-frames were compromised. And the WTC tower that collapsed first burned slowly for 50 minutes. "

garand wrote on Jun 26, 2007 9:46 AM:

" there is a guy on ebay that sells tin foil hats if you can't make your own.... "

nettleton wrote on Jun 26, 2007 9:21 AM:

" D'oh! Meant Executive Branch. "

Overwhelming evidence wrote on Jun 26, 2007 9:04 AM:

" Hey Sheeple, wake up. Look at the evidence, decide for yourself, use critical thinking don't let the media and government feed you what they want you to believe. As far as the Popular Mechanics debunking of a conspiracy, Popular Mechanics is owned by the Herst Corporation, does that tell you anything. Thanks Greg. "

Let me guess... wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:58 AM:

" The second plane came from the grassy knoll........ "

an open society wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:50 AM:

" In an open society such as ours "things happen." Just recently, due to bureaucratic foul-ups at multiple levels, the fellow with a highly dangerous form of tuberculosis was allowed to travel overseas. Was this a terrorist conspiracy? Democracy in a country as large as ours moves too slowly to fix gaps in its security. And when someone like Bush does make a few changes (to personal freedoms) that affect practically none of us, you have the whole liberal community up in arms. You can't have it both ways. "

Lucy wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:48 AM:

" Do they all meet with Oliver Stone and Michael Moore? The entire truth is we (the government...especially, Bill Clinton) let them get away with terrorist activities against the US for years with only a slap on the wrist. When they (the terrorists) did the biggie on 9/11 they thought we were still sleeping...but not on Dubya's watch! Go George! "

Kennedy assassination all over again wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:44 AM:

" Yes, mistakes were made on 9/11, mainly in the area of letting terrorists get on the planes. But let's face it- the idea there was some huge conspiracy is far more ridiculous than the charge that Kennedy was the victim of a conspiracy. Think of all the people involved in intentionally allowing GROUPS of men to get on FOUR planes. PREPOSTEROUS. Hundreds of people would be involved- in this society you couldn't keep more than 2-3 people quiet. We just screwed up, that's all. "

Hold On wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:19 AM:

" Let me guess, we didn't land on the moon, Aliens did land at Roswell, and of course, the most hated president orchestrated the largest conspiracy to get the U.S. into war. Most say that Bush isn't smart enough to tie his own shoes, but he can do this type of conspiracy. Really, I am thinking that the U.S. is becoming dumber by the second. "

Nettleton wrote on Jun 26, 2007 8:10 AM:

" Thanks Greg for actually mentioning this subject in the open forum of this newspaper. I know that alot of people will laugh it off as conspiracy theory, but there are to many unanswered questions from that day. To many strange coincidence,s for my liking. Maybe one day we will get those answers, but don't hold your breath. When the Vice President claims his office isn't in the judical branch so he doesn't have to follow the law, i'm sure only history will ever answer these questions. "

Your point? wrote on Jun 26, 2007 7:52 AM:

" Not sure what you're getting at... unless you're just another bored conspiracy theorist. "

Tony S wrote on Jun 26, 2007 7:13 AM:

" These people getting together for a coffee clatch (sic)? What are the questions? "

BN Cynic wrote on Jun 26, 2007 6:40 AM:

" I'm not saying I necessarily believe the 9/11 truthers/conspiracy theorists, but the Bush Regime isn't exactly trustworthy either. Maybe we'll find out what happened in 50 years when things start to be declassified. "

WW wrote on Jun 26, 2007 6:36 AM:

" It is high time someone start looking into the truth of the entire affairs around the events of September 11th. We've been fed a bill of goods and like the good sheep we are, we believed it. It is time for a change. "

Gregg Come on wrote on Jun 26, 2007 5:01 AM:

" Conspiracy theorists really to tickle me. To think adults have nothing better to do with their time than to dream up wacky things about events in history. I find it odd that every person Gregg mentioned in his letter as far as sources go are liberals. Oh yes I said liberals as Ron Paul only has an R next to his name to get elected in his district. What a list of nobodys you provide as a basis for your theory Gregg. I honestly believe you people do have you hearts in the right place, however when it comes to trying to sell your ideas the majority of us are not buying them. I really wish seeminly intelligent people would steer their time and efforts into something a little less Sci-Fi and something tanglible to benefit fellow citizens. Oh and for the record Gregg, I am not waiting for Art Bell to come down with the mother ship. "

u2r2h comments:

Reading this discussion I feel like I life in the 51st state.. the state of denial. Welcome to the US of Amnesia .. or is it the US of Angst?

Bush said: -- Let us never tolerate outragoues conspiracy theories -- .. about 911.

How could they?! 911 an inside job -- is a credibility-holocaust for the media, courts, military, spooks and any honest citizen. Shoudl this be a heinous lie, now for almost 6 years, WE'D ALL BE COMPLICIT. There is no firing-squad that can give us satisfaction when we find out.

But we are hardly alone... the creme de la creme of US intellects (Chomsky) have dismissed "Conspiracy theories" as whacko. Who could blame you? Well, you have to be gullible. Two towers, 4 airplanes, WTC7, pentagon, UA93, no defense, ALL THE EVIDENCE IS GONE, and 19 young 20 somethings suceeded an all fronts... but gained zip. ...
.. (German accent:) Chomelunt sekuriti .... enacted while UNNOWN anthrax murders ... fear of saddams BIO-weapons ... but now we have strategic new air-bases near the OIL ..

To me it is amazing they got you to believe it in the first place. As I a say: gullible! What will we swallow next, suck on what?

My guess is that "they" have to be careful not do overdo it now.. there are many suspicious people.. But we are all such cowards. NOT A SINGLE PROSECUTION over 911 evidence tampering or negligence.. NOT ONE. wow. United States of Amnesia.
But the fact we can be writing our thoughts internationally and uncensored... needs to be mentioned. Times are changing... and we need to inform .. google U2R2H for my efforts.. Please remember that the Germans were quite democratic, devided and educated in 1933. And everything Hitler did (on behalf of the corporations) .. was legal.

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posted by u2r2h at 12:57 PM


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